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Post by rmedhurst on Oct 15, 2015 21:19:38 GMT 9
Quite by chance, I started working on this story about demons earlier this week. Another attempt at Akutagawa (this one vaguely reminds me of Torokko). www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/000879/files/3804_27277.htmlPadre Organtino’s eyes could discern things invisible to others. It was said that in particular, he could plainly observe the forms of demons that came up from hell to tempt people. Anyone who had seen his blue eyes believed this to be true. It was an indisputable fact, at least among the Christians who came to worship Deus at the foreign temple. The old manuscripts say that Organtino described the appearance of a demon he saw in the streets of Kyoto to the great warlord Oda Nobunaga. It was a strange little creature with a human face, a bat’s wings, and the legs of a goat. Organtino told of how he had seen it many times, either clapping its hands and cavorting on the shaft at the top of a pagoda or crouching in fear of the sunlight under a four-legged gate. And that is not all. He also said he had seen demons clinging to the back of the Buddhist priest from the mountain or hanging from the hair of his wife. But of Organtino’s various demons, the most interesting for us must be the one he observed sitting cross-legged on the palanquin of a certain noblewoman. The author of the manuscript interpreted this tale of a demon as an allegory by Organtino... One day Nobunaga fell in love with a noblewoman and tried to bend her to his will. However, neither the lady nor her parents were inclined to let him have his way. Then, for the sake of the lady, Organtino borrowed the words of a demon and chastised Nobunaga for his unruly behaviour... Of course, it is difficult today to decide whether the writer’s interpretation is correct or not. At the same time, there is no particular obstacle to us deciding either way. One evening, outside the gate of the temple used for teaching the Christian faith, Organtino laid eyes on a demon sitting on the lady’s palanquin. But unlike the other demons, this one had a face as beautiful as a jewel. And from its folded hands and bowed head, it seemed to be deeply agonising over some matter. Organtino feared for the noblewoman’s safety. For the lady, who was as devout a Catholic as her parents, to be possessed by a demon was no trivial occurrence. So the padre approached the side of the palanquin and, through the power of the cross, suddenly captured the demon without any difficulty. Then he carried it by the scruff of the neck into the inner sanctuary of the temple. In the sanctuary, candles smouldered in front of an image of the Lord Jesus Christ. Organtino made the demon sit down there and questioned it closely on why it had been up on the lady’s palanquin. “I thought that I would corrupt the woman. But at the same time, I didn’t want to corrupt her. On seeing that pure soul, why would anyone have the urge to sully it in the fires of hell? I wished to make it all the more pure and without blemish. And yet, as I continued to think on that, ultimately the desire to ruin her also rose in me. Caught between those two inclinations, I was puzzling over our fates on the palanquin. If I hadn’t been doing so, I would probably have vanished to the depths of hell before I saw your shadow, and I would have escaped this sad predicament. We are always like this. The more we wish not to corrupt, the greater our desire to corrupt becomes. Is there any other such strange anguish? Each time I feel this torment, it seems that the clear light of Heaven I saw so long ago and the pitch black of hell I see now have become unified within my small chest. So please pity me. I am so very lonely.” Saying this, the demon with the beautiful face burst into tears... The manuscript legend does not tell us what happens to the demon. But what does the story mean to us? When we read it, it is enough that we feel its spirit of entreaty… Organtino, pity us as well as the demon. We feel the same kind of anguish. |
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Post by rmedhurst on Oct 15, 2015 21:28:06 GMT 9
The most obvious problems are listed below. Let me know any parts that sound unnatural or other suggestions for improvements.
I got a bit confused about whether the demons were singular or plural at different points in the second paragraph.
The part I have translated as "hanging from the hair of his wife" in the original Japanee is 或時は内の女房の髪にぶら下つてゐる I am assuming this refers to the Buddhist priest's wife, but wonder if 女房 always means wife, and what 内 means here. Presumably it is not the Catholic priest Organtino's wife, but I am confused.
I'm not sure about the part I have translated as "Then, for the sake of the lady, Organtino borrowed the words of a demon and chastised Nobunaga for his unruly behaviour..." That is the third sentence of the Japanese below. Particularly "言を悪魔に藉りて." But could find virtually no help online.
信長が或時、その姫君に懸想して、たつて自分の意に従はせようとした。が、姫君も姫君の双親も、信長の望に応ずる事を喜ばない。そこでうるがんは姫君の為に、言を悪魔に藉りて、信長の暴を諫めたのであらうと云ふのである。
Then, right at the end I have put "it is enough that we feel its spirit of entreaty" for 唯かう呼びかけたいやうな心もちを感じさへすれば好いのである, but not sure if correct.
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Post by emilytiger on Oct 16, 2015 16:56:23 GMT 9
Judging from the それら in the next part, I would say begin plural and then switch to describing the behavior of individual demons for the second part beginning with "Organtino told." Or really, if you envision a group of them dancing around the pagoda rings (like me) that's cool, too. After all, it's your translation  (Btw, not sure about "shaft" there. I'd probably go for "finial" even though it's a bit obscure.) This might be the definition of 女房 you are looking for: 貴族の家に仕える侍女. 内 would mean "my" here (in-group), I think... When you say "the author of this manuscript" I mistook it (before reading the Japanese) as the current story. "interpreted this tale of a demon" <--I'd take out "of a demon" since we know. "One day Nobunaga fell in love with a noblewoman" <-- Not just "a," その, so the same one from the beginning of the paragraph. "At the same time, there is no particular obstacle to us deciding either way." <-- For some reason I find myself wondering if he thinks it doesn't matter either way. Like just adding, "It could go either way" after saying it's a difficult thing to determine doesn't seem to mean much, but saying it doesn't really matter would have some impact. Anyone familiar with this kind of nuance? "folded hands " --> "crossed arms" (Probably?) "trivial occurrence" --> "trivial matter" (I'd go with the "usual" here because the problem is not the occurrence, but the matter...at least to me? Like it's not the act itself but all the stuff about how she is a Christian and what a horrible experience that would be for her. Also the way it is kinda makes it sound like it would just be unusual, like not something that would happen to her everyday, whereas it would probably be devastating.) "suddenly captured the demon without any difficulty." <--Reads a little weird. Maybe just take out "suddenly"? Also, I got the feeling he drags it, but maybe it's an open issue. Gotta run for now, but I'll check out the rest later. |
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Post by rmedhurst on Oct 17, 2015 15:37:24 GMT 9
Thanks, Emily, I've taken on several of your points. I didn't use "finial" as I thought it's a real stumbling block for a reader, but I changed it to "ringed shaft." Still not entirely happy there, but originally decided to use "shaft" based on this site, which pops up quite often whenever I've researched religious topics in the past and seems reliable. www.onmarkproductions.com/html/5-elements-pagoda-gravestone.html
I googled where you got the definition for 女房 from and I think it's a "court lady" here with 内 indicating the palace.
I've gone with "it doesn't matter," as you suggest because it sounds better in English and it seems like that could be the correct translation although I'm not 100% sure.
Changed "trivial occurrence" to "ordinary occurrence," not using "matter" because it has just been used at the end of the previous paragraph. こと is kind of an annoying word.
I had the idea the demon would be too small to drag (about the size of a rabbit?) so I'm sticking with carrying. But yeah, that is my interpretation.
tl;dr Thanks for all the feedback.Padre Organtino’s eyes could discern things invisible to others. It was said that in particular, he could plainly observe the forms of demons that came up from hell to tempt people. Anyone who had seen his blue eyes believed this to be true. It was an indisputable fact, at least among the Christians who came to worship Deus at the foreign temple. An old manuscript says that Organtino described the appearance of demons he saw in the streets of Kyoto to the great warlord Oda Nobunaga. They were strange little creatures with human faces, bats’ wings, and goats’ legs. Organtino told of how he had seen them many times, either clapping their hands and cavorting on the ringed shafts at the top of pagodas or crouching in fear of the sunlight under four-legged gates. And that is not all. He also said he had seen demons clinging to the back of Buddhist priests from the mountain or hanging from the hair of court ladies. But of Organtino’s various demons, the most interesting for us must be the one he observed sitting cross-legged on the palanquin of a certain noblewoman. The author of the old manuscript interpreted this tale as an allegory by Organtino... One day Nobunaga fell in love with the noblewoman and tried to bend her to his will. However, neither the lady nor her parents were inclined to let him have his way. Then, for the sake of the lady, Organtino borrowed the words of a demon and chastised Nobunaga for his unruly behaviour... Of course, it is difficult today to decide whether the writer’s interpretation is correct or not. At the same time, that doesn’t really matter to us. One evening, outside the gate of the temple used for teaching the Christian faith, Organtino laid eyes on a demon sitting on the lady’s palanquin. But unlike the other demons, this one had a face as beautiful as a jewel. And from its folded arms and bowed head, it seemed to be deeply agonising over some matter. Organtino feared for the noblewoman’s safety. For the lady, who was as devout a Catholic as her parents, to be possessed by a demon was no ordinary occurrence. So the padre approached the side of the palanquin and, through the power of the cross, captured the demon with ease. Then he carried it by the scruff of the neck into the inner sanctuary of the temple. In the sanctuary, candles smouldered in front of an image of the Lord Jesus Christ. Organtino made the demon sit down there and questioned it closely on why it had been up on the lady’s palanquin. “I thought that I would corrupt the woman. But at the same time, I didn’t want to corrupt her. On seeing that pure soul, why would anyone have the urge to sully it in the fires of hell? I wished to make it all the more pure and without blemish. And yet, as I continued to think on that, ultimately the desire to ruin her also rose in me. Caught between those two inclinations, I was puzzling over our fates on the palanquin. If I hadn’t been doing so, I would probably have vanished to the depths of hell before I saw your shadow, and I would have escaped this sad predicament. We are always like this. The more we wish not to corrupt, the greater our desire to corrupt becomes. Is there any other such strange anguish? Each time I feel this torment, it seems that the clear light of Heaven I saw so long ago and the pitch black of hell I see now have become unified within my small chest. So please pity me. I am so very lonely.” Saying this, the demon with the beautiful face burst into tears... The manuscript legend does not tell us what happens to the demon. But what does the story mean to us? When we read it, it is enough that we feel its spirit of entreaty… Organtino, pity us as well as the demon. We feel the same kind of anguish.
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Post by smith on Oct 20, 2015 12:54:48 GMT 9
Nice translation. I'll put this up about a week after Emily's one goes up, to help stagger the posts.
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Post by emilytiger on Oct 20, 2015 22:04:47 GMT 9
Just a couple quick thoughts after digging into the rest:
After thinking about this a bit more, "borrowed the words of a demon and chastised Nobunaga" <-- changing that "and chastised" to "to chastise" might make it clearer?
"rose in me" --> "rose within me" (rings better to me but obviously doesn't change much, so just suggesting in case it didn't occur to you as an option)
”Is there any other such strange anguish" --> "Is there any other anguish strange as this?" (Just an idea.)
I think the "entreaty" line seems good!
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Post by rmedhurst on Oct 29, 2015 20:46:14 GMT 9
Thanks, Emily! I made a few changes.
Padre Organtino’s eyes could discern things invisible to others. It was said that in particular, he could plainly observe the forms of demons that came up from hell to tempt people. Anyone who had seen his blue eyes believed this to be true. It was an indisputable fact, at least among the Christians who went to worship Deus at the foreign temple.
An old manuscript says that Organtino described the appearance of demons he saw in the streets of Kyoto to the great warlord Oda Nobunaga. They were strange little creatures with human faces, bats’ wings, and goats’ legs. Organtino told of how he had seen them many times, either clapping their hands and cavorting on the ringed shafts at the top of pagodas or crouching in fear of the sunlight under four-legged gates. And that is not all. He also said he had seen demons clinging to the back of Buddhist priests from the mountain or hanging from the hair of court ladies.
But of Organtino’s various demons, the most interesting for us must be the one he observed sitting cross-legged on the palanquin of a certain noblewoman. The author of the old manuscript interpreted this tale as an allegory by Organtino... One day Nobunaga fell in love with the noblewoman and tried to bend her to his will. However, neither the lady nor her parents were inclined to let him have his way. Then, for the sake of the lady, Organtino borrowed the words of a demon to chastise Nobunaga for his unruly behaviour... Of course, it is difficult today to decide whether the writer’s interpretation is correct or not. At the same time, that doesn’t really matter to us.
One evening, outside the gate of the temple used for teaching the Christian faith, Organtino laid eyes on a demon sitting on the lady’s palanquin. But unlike the other demons, this one had a face as beautiful as a jewel. And from its folded arms and bowed head, it seemed to be deeply agonising over some matter.
Organtino feared for the noblewoman’s safety. For the lady, who was as devout a Catholic as her parents, to be possessed by a demon would be very serious indeed. So the padre approached the side of the palanquin and, through the power of the cross, captured the demon with ease. Then he carried it by the scruff of the neck into the inner sanctuary of the temple.
In the sanctuary, candles smouldered in front of an image of the Lord Jesus Christ. Organtino made the demon sit down there and questioned it closely on why it had been up on the lady’s palanquin.
“I thought that I would corrupt the woman. But at the same time, I didn’t want to corrupt her. On seeing that pure soul, why would anyone have the urge to sully it in the fires of hell? I wished to make it all the more pure and without blemish. And yet, as I continued to think on that, ultimately the desire to ruin her also rose within me. Caught between those two inclinations, I was puzzling over our fates on the palanquin. If I hadn’t been doing so, I would probably have vanished to the depths of hell before I saw your shadow, and I would have escaped this sad predicament. We are always like this. The more we wish not to corrupt, the greater our desire to corrupt becomes. Is there any other such strange anguish? Each time I feel this torment, it seems that the clear light of Heaven I saw so long ago and the pitch black of hell I see now have become unified within my small chest. So please pity me. I am so very lonely.” Saying this, the demon with the beautiful face burst into tears...
The manuscript legend does not tell us what happens to the demon. But what does the story mean to us? When we read it, it is enough that we feel its spirit of entreaty…
Organtino, pity us as well as the demon. We feel the same kind of anguish.
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Post by smith on Nov 3, 2015 8:57:03 GMT 9
Ok, looking good. If this is the version you would like to use, I will go ahead and post it to the main page.
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Post by rmedhurst on Nov 4, 2015 21:25:47 GMT 9
Thanks, I just made one small change, "...to be possessed by a demon would be very serious indeed..." and I'm happy with it now!
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Post by smith on Nov 16, 2015 7:01:58 GMT 9
OK, I've just put this one up, but haven't found a decent header image yet. Take a look and let me know if anything it out of whack. And if you have an image you would like to use, let me know.
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Post by aperrin on Mar 5, 2016 13:47:42 GMT 9
I didn't realize Padre Organtino was one of Akutagawa's recurring characters. He's shown up in at least one other story I can think of, another one of Akutagawa's Christian stories.
So far I've only seen Organtino and Yasukichi, who's a sort of Akutagawa stand-in in some of his more autobiographical stories.
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Post by rmedhurst on Mar 21, 2016 21:22:11 GMT 9
Apparently Organtino was a real missionary, if you didn't know. Although I can't remember too much about him now.
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